PzH 2000 vs. AS90 Braveheart

[Micael]

A while back I got a chance to get a tour and demonstration of the both of these selfpropelled 155 mm howitzers and I thought I would share my thoughts on them and what I was told by their respective crews.

First on the PanzerHaubits. The German army's new macho toy
I got a "dry" demonstration of it's advanced automated shell loading system and was quite impressed. It seemed fast, robust and is reliable according to the crew. Naturally you can load it manually as well in case the automated system is damaged. The system works so that you put the rounds in a cradle on the outside aft part of the vehicle and punch a couple of buttons, what kind of grenade it is etc and anter. The grenade is then "sucked inside" and put in a storage rack with impressive speed. When you want to fire later on you specify the grenade type on a touch screen and the computer remembers where those are in the racks and loads it.
The vehicle also seemed well thought out and the aft compartment was pretty spacious so you could move around with ease, very important in order for the crew to function at their best.
Another good feature is the consol for angaging targets directly which is located pretty far forward in the vehicle. This consol, normally unmanned, had a screen, some buttons and a, from the looks of it, pretty advanced joystick.
I also took a good look around inside and noted that everything seemed robust and sturdy, even wiring and electric equipment for which notoriously civilian standards are used. Not here, good solid military style.
The driver place was likewise a place where functionality had taken the upper hand. Comfortable with a high tech steering wheel and vehicle control panel.
It also has got attachment points for add-on armour on the outside which shows there has been some planning ahead done.
So all in all I liked this very much and so did the crew, they had yet to manage to get it to break down or get stuck somewhere despite their best tries. The 1000hp engine does a good job albeit a bit loud.

Now to the AS 90 Braveheart. The British army's new howitzer.
This design is a few years older than that of the Panzerhaubitz and I was naturally prepared on that it would seem slightly older to the eye but I had some surprises in store for me, both good and bad.
But more on that later on. First let me tell you on my first impression of it. When I first got inside the first you think is "this is much smaller". My best estimate is that there was only half as much crewspace as in the PzH. I got the feel that this was less well thought out as well and even the seats felt uncomfortable (and I was used to riding around in a very archaic terrain vehicle with less comfort than a Willy's Jeep).
What is also striking is also the fact that it has no automated loading system so everything is done manually. This is cheaper and less space consuming but also slower than an automated system despite what some people thinks about those. The electronic consols seemed more modern than I had anticipated but the rest of the vehicle lived up to my imagination and in one case shocked me. That is, I can swear that NBC system consol must have been salvaged from a Centurion tank from the fifties. It was simply as WWII as you can get today. I asked a guy in the crew about it and he said "you know, I've been thinking the same thing myself".
The paint coats on the metal parts on the inside was thick and with the kind of paint you see on old industry equipment which gave it an archaic feeling. I asked about how durable the vehicle was on the inside and was told that below kneelevel you could spray the dirt off with a high-pressure water wash but above that the equipment was sensitive which I had already suspected seeing the thin and obviously week wiring much more "civilian" in standard than on the PzH.
The engine is quiter on the AS90 for a simple reason. It has got 400 hp less than the PzH despite just beeing a few tonnes lighter. This 600 hp engine is thus insufficient and besides the lower speed the crew had managed to get this vehicle stuck a few times.
No attachment points for add-on armour here.
So to summarise I was a bit disappointed by it.
However, in all fairness it should be mentioned that one AS90 Braveheart costs about half of what one PanzerHaubits costs. I do think the extra cost is justified though.

That's it!
Comments from anyone?

[tomahawk6]

here are a couple links:

www.army-technology.com/p...index.html

www.army-technology.com/p...index.html

I agree with your comparison. The German weapon system appears to be more advanced. The argument in the US at least against automatic loaders is what do you do when it breaks down ? Or if the electronics get jostled due to prolonged firing and it shuts down what do you do ? usually the automatic loader has elminated at least one crew position
so its even harder to overcome a breakdown.

[tomahawk6]

For fun lets look at the Russian MSTA S 152mm gun see how it compares to the UK and German versions.

www.army-technology.com/p...index.html

www.army-technology.com/p...index.html

The second link is for Crusader. It may get axed but it is an interesting weapon.

honestly, if you cant get the AS90 facts right why the hell do yhou bother to write the article, it is more effective because it has a lower silhouette, making it less of a target, its light engine allows it to keep up with mbts and it is easy to maintain, it has an automatic loader for 10 rds in 12sec and a manual for around 4 rds in 10 secs, get it right or dont start to write the article

[Micael]

1. When the two stood next to eachother any difference in silhouette was neglible.

2. No, it's underpowered engine gets it stuck more than the PzH200.

3. No, definately no automatic loader of any kind in this example of the AS90 Braveheart.
A "manual loader" is called a crewmember btw...

4. I suggest you get it right.
Have you even seen the vehicle in question?

Yes actually i have, i used to work with it and the older abbot AS

Enough of the quarrelling, the AS90 is one of the Best AS in the world, despite its engine. this is shown in the iraq war with no as90 casulties but a few m109 self destructions. The fact is the German vehicles and troops are not allowed out of thier country for another 50 odd years, so their technology is\going to waste. They have a brilliant AVRE and AVLB but they cannot go outside of their borders. This is due to WW2, and the treaty signed at the end of it.

[Micael]

the AS90 is one of the Best AS in the world, despite its engine

Yes, I didn't say otherwise.

this is shown in the iraq war with no as90 casulties but a few m109 self destructions

No actually. The M109 is an antiquated dinosaur which bears no relevance to any modern system. It is irrelevant.

The fact is the German vehicles and troops are not allowed out of thier country for another 50 odd years, so their technology is\going to waste. They have a brilliant AVRE and AVLB but they cannot go outside of their borders. This is due to WW2, and the treaty signed at the end of it.

Which have more or less nothing to do with this thread at all.

The fact is the German vehicles and troops are not allowed out of thier country for another 50 odd years, so their technology is\going to waste.

I'm not an artillery expert so I leave that discussion to the guys that know. However your statement is error as far as German military and vehicles deploying outside of Germany.

Germany currently has troops involved in Afghanistan, Kosovo, Bosnia, and Macedonia.

www.germany-info.org/rela...ments.html

Their armored vehicles and weapons systems have been sold globally. Leopard1 and Leopard2 tanks are used by nations all over the world. The German AFVs and APCs are used by multipule nations including the US Army which currently operate the Fox.

Quote: Their armored vehicles and weapons systems have been sold globally. Leopard1 and Leopard2 tanks are used by nations all over the world. The German AFVs and APCs are used by multipule nations including the US Army which currently operate the Fox

right. They are not allowed to deploy en masse or at all due to the peace treaty signed at the end of world war 2. This treaty is starting to draw to a close, their technology can be SOLD to other countries. They cannot operate large scale forces outside of their country for a few more years. If you really want, look back at a history book at the treaty and read up on it yourself.